Grief After Creative Publication

Hi there!

There are a myriad of of feelings and emotions that can come as you work on and complete a creative work. Regardless if you are an author, a sculptor, a musician, a visual artist. Regardless if your work is for your own enjoyment or to share with the world, you can feel a variety of emotions as you move through the process. In this episode, we explore that experience.

Some of this weeks episode highlights are:
9:02 The prevailing view is that we live in a materialist society and culture. Intuitive people see our world as more of a living consciousness.
13:10 Western culture gives us the message that "this is the way it is and if you think or feel outside of that, there is something wrong with you." Thats where the problem is!
22:16 We live in a society that is uncomfortable with "negative emotions" - we want to just move on.

--- Full Raw Transcription of Podcast Below ---

Lauren Sapala (00:00):
Your book is not just a collection of sentences and a collection of chapters that you're going to finish. And then you're going to mark it and it's going to make a name for you. Your book is a relationship you're in.

Introduction (00:15):
Welcome to the SideHustle Lounge. If you're looking for flexible ways to earn income, grow your mindset, and live the lifestyle you've always dreamed of, you are in the right place. So lower the lights. Grab your favorite beverage and join your host. Founder of NotaryCoach.com and Amazon bestselling author of Sign and Thrive: How To Make Six Figures As A Mobile Notary And Loan Signing Agent, Bill Soroka.

Bill Soroka (00:50):
Hi everyone and cheers to my guest today, Lauren Sapala, she's the author of the INFJ writer and also a writing coach for other INFJ and INFP personality types. Lauren, thank you so much for being here today.

Lauren Sapala (01:08):
Hi Bill. Thanks for having me. I'm really glad to be here.

Bill Soroka (01:11):
It is such an honor to have you on here. I'm so glad that we connected at the "Gathering Of The Creatives" in December. Today what we're going to be talking about it's actually something I've never heard discussed before until I came across you in December at that workshop. We're going to be talking about grief after publication for creatives, but before we do that Lauren, I think there's probably people listening who are wondering what the heck I just said about the combination of letters in your book title and in your coaching, what does it mean to be INFJ or INFP?

Lauren Sapala (01:47):
Well, the INFJ and INFP personality types. This is a reference to the Myers-Briggs personality system. Also known as M B T I, and basically you take the personality profile test and you're given four letters that describe your personality type. There are 16 types. So with INFJ for example, the I is for introverted. The N is for intuitive. The F is for feeling and the J is for judging. INFP, it's the same - introverted, intuitive, feeling, perceiving. And I just want to say quickly, people sometimes get caught up on the judging/perceiving part, like, well, I don't judge people. I'm not judgmental and it has nothing to do with that. It's how you organize information in your environment and how you make decisions. But that's basically it in a nutshell, I always encourage people to go online and look this stuff up because there's a ton of good information online and finding out you're an INFJ or an INFP personality type, can truly be life-changing.

Bill Soroka (02:50):
And that it was for me too. I'm so glad. And thank you for writing the book. The INFJ Writer. I'm big into personality types. But I'm not, I wasn't sold on whether I enjoyed them and honored them, or was terrified of them because they're so accurate sometimes. And I got really clear that I am, INFJ so I really thought it felt like you wrote that book just for me.

Lauren Sapala (03:16):
I hear that quite often. And I also encourage people, you know, take it with a grain of salt, which means use what works for you. If you feel like you're being put in a box, you don't have to be put in a box. You can use what works for you and leave the room. I think

Bill Soroka (03:31):
For personality types too, it almost, it helps you identify what box you may have already put yourself in. So you don't have to live in a box. Would you agree with that?

Lauren Sapala (03:41):
Yes, I definitely think so. I, and I think it helps you embrace those parts of you that maybe you saw as a stumbling block or an obstacle. I know it's very empowering for introverts in particular and for intuitive people. And that's the piece I really concentrate now on is that intuitive piece with writers and other creative people. It's so important.

Bill Soroka (04:02):
Let's dive a little deeper in that too. What do you mean by the intuitive piece?

Lauren Sapala (04:07):
So if you're looking at the MBTI system they would say, you know, there's sensors and intuitives and sensors are the people who take in information through their five senses, right? And then the intuitive people take in information from a different place. And I guess if, if you were working with NBTI experts, they would say, well, intuitive people are really good at reading the micro-expressions of someone's face or picking up on body language. They can pick up on these sort of subconscious cues. I go a little bit further with it, and I think intuitive people have a much more porous energy field. And we can actually receive information from a bunch of different places. A lot of the time we don't know where this stuff is coming from. Most intuitive people tend to feel crazy or half crazy for most of their lives. And they will question if they're mentally ill you know, something's wrong with them because they seem to get this information that they can't explain, or they hear voices, or they see visions. They have experiences that cannot be explained solely through the five senses. So that's what I mean when I say intuitive, which is a lot of stuff in a pretty big, broad

Bill Soroka (05:16):
Term. Yeah, it is. I love that. And this would be like the, for writers in particular, maybe the ones who sit down to write a book and it just seems to flow through them without stopping. They're more of a vessel for receiving that information from somewhere else. That kind of thing. Is that what you're talking about?

Lauren Sapala (05:35):
Definitely. Yes, that's exactly it. Intuitives who are writers are intuitive writers, so they don't use the rational side of themselves. I hesitate even to say the rational side of the brain, because we're still assuming everything happens in the brain. And, you know, everything's a thinking process. They don't use the rational side of themselves to create they don't they don't draw on primarily masculine energy to do that. So what I mean by that is they don't usually work in linear order. They don't set goals and then achieve them. You know, they don't set things out in this orderly manner. Step one, step two. And I've accomplished this. Now I'm done with chapter one. Now I'm done with the ending intuitive writers. They more work in a spiral or they'll work in a circular manner or they'll work as if they're building a web. So it's a bunch of different dots that are all connected. And they're trying to figure out the connections it's using feminine energy, which is a totally different,

Bill Soroka (06:33):
Yeah. Wow. This is the reason I wanted you to go a little deeper into that is I think this might play a role into our topic today as well with grief after publication, because I'm wondering now, if there's a connection between the type that you are and releasing of this creative energy when you publish. So let's talk a little bit about what I mean by that. And the reason, or the way that Lauren and I came together was at a it was an online event for 2020, the Gathering of the Creatives put on by Jacob Nordby and Julia Cameron, and Lauren was one of the guest speakers. And when I saw that you were there, you were one of the main reasons I chose to be a part of that. But there were many other great speakers too. And I had a burning question that I wanted to ask somebody who had published books or art or something.

Bill Soroka (07:34):
And that was about this feeling of what I called at the time, depression after publishing. And I had asked this question of, I think, three or four of the other guest speakers, but I didn't ask it the right way. And I think it may be a little too deep, maybe a little, one of the, some of those negative feelings that people don't want to talk about on an online event. And then I got to Lauren's workshop and I asked her, I said, Hey, here's what I'm experiencing. I published my book. It was a best seller, but I still haven't felt really excited about, I almost feel sad when I think about it. And Lauren stopped at the presentation and for 15 minutes kind of shared her experience about this grief after publication and Lauren, I just want to say thank you for doing that because just validating my feelings went a long way for me, but then also just release the energy about it. And I was able to actually kind of dive in and research. And we're going to talk a little bit about that too, but I wondered if you could share and let's get a conversation going about what it means to have this grief after you publish something creative.

Lauren Sapala (08:45):
So this is a big topic and we're going to go down a long twisty rabbit hole about it. The way I see it. And I'm so glad that we sort of laid that foundation between masculine, creative energy and feminine, creative energy before we really get into this. It's important to remember that we live in a culture and a society. That's not only very masculine energy oriented, but we live in a materialist society. And when I say materialist, I don't mean that we are greedy, or we want to acquire things all the time, even though that's part of it. I mean that we believe we live in a concrete reality and we're mostly surrounded by dead matter, right? So rocks are just dead matter for us to make buildings out of the dirt is just dead matter for us to dig up and do stuff, right?

Lauren Sapala (09:33):
You know, same thing with trees, trees exist for us to cut them down and make houses out of. This is a materialist point of view, and it's the point of view that we've been living with for the past couple of centuries, intuitive people instinctively know that this point of view is not accurate. We are surrounded by living consciousness. The earth itself is a living consciousness. The trees are alive, the rocks are alive. Everything around us is alive and it's interacting with us at every moment. So what this means, if you are masculine energy oriented, a normal person in mainstream society, you relate to things on an achievement oriented basis, right? So you're always trying to figure out how you can get ahead, how you can be king of the hill, how things can work for you. I'm going to cut that tree down because I need a boat.

Lauren Sapala (10:24):
When you are an intuitive person, you relate to things from a relationship oriented point of view. So it's not that everything is just around you for you to use for your own use. You are in relationship with everything. This goes for your creative works. Your book is not just an achievement for you to accomplish your book is not just a collection of sentences and a collection of chapters that you're going to finish. And then you're going to mark it and it's going to make a name for you. Your book is a relationship you're in, and it's a deep and meaningful relationship, just like you would have with a family member or a child or romantic partner, much of the time, intuitive people report that they feel the relationship between themselves and their creative work is like that of a parent and a child or even a soulmate.

Lauren Sapala (11:13):
So when you end that process of working together and it's time for that work to go onto the next leg of the journey and leave you, it's very, very sad and grief does come in. It's a very real thing. And I think that's where intuitive people get so tangled up because there's no language to talk about this in our culture. If you are a person who believes you can go out and sit on a rock and feel the soul of that rock, and that rock is alive, you are thought of as strange or weird or something's wrong with you. So we don't have the tools to even express this as it's going on

Bill Soroka (11:48):
This, just nails it. And in my research, I found, I finally found a therapist and a coach to help identify exactly what I think you're talking about. And it's called disenfranchised grief. And I want to read the definition for you if that's okay and see if this fits in disenfranchised, disenfranchised grief is disenfranchising messages that actively discount dismiss disapprove, discourage, and invalidate the experiences and efforts of grieving and disenfranchising behaviors intervene, interfere with the right to grieving by withholding permission, disallowing, constraining, hindering, and even prohibiting it. So this is those that grief that people just don't think you deserve, or you're too weird and they shouldn't honor it

Lauren Sapala (12:42):
And intuitive people go through it a lot. It's not just with creative works, intuitive people I would say are more profoundly impacted by the death of a pet or leaving a house that they've lived in for a long time that they love, or the end of a relationship. And all of these things carry their own living consciousness. And I think intuitive people can pick up on it, tune into it. And so we do have a relationship with it where a lot of other people don't,

Bill Soroka (13:07):
And there's nothing wrong with that either right.

Lauren Sapala (13:10):
There is nothing wrong with that. We're all at different stages in our development. I think what's happened though, is that we live in Western culture. Our society gives us the message that this is the way it is. And if you think outside of that, or you feel outside of that, something's wrong with you. That's, that's where the problem.

Bill Soroka (13:29):
Yes, exactly. I think that this intuitiveness is a key factor in this because I've talked to many authors that even recording artists and bloggers and podcasters and ask them if they felt the same way and every now and then I'll happen upon one or two that can relate to this experience. But most of them I think are relating to that masculine energy that you just described. It's just, it's just another check, check off the bucket list. So I want, so when you talked about the parental relationship with the creative work, that's really relatable. And it's, even though I can't relate from a biological standpoint, here's how I feel like I can best describe this. And maybe that has to do with the feminine energy part. I don't know you tell me, but when I released my book, first of all, it took me three years to write that.

Bill Soroka (14:24):
And if I'm really tell the truth about it, it took, you know, 40 years before that, because I had dreamed of being a writer since I was six years old, I was going to be a best-selling author. I was going to write and publish a book. And then, so after that three years of actually writing it, I published it or birthed it out into the world. And it, it wasn't part of my daily routine anymore. And it was just out and I felt so vulnerable. Like I know that there was, you know, the typical fear of judgment and things like that. But so when I birthed it out into the world, and then it took on a life of its own and it didn't need me anymore. So I felt like it was postpartum depression and empty nester syndrome within like two weeks time period. And even I felt excited. I did not feel excited. I started withdrawing. I didn't go in front of the camera as much. And I didn't want to talk about the book. I didn't want to talk about anything. And it took me for me. And it was about I think 15 months of not knowing I was grieving to figure it out.

Lauren Sapala (15:38):
It's very common for intuitive writers. And I know you said, well, you know, biologically, like, like I can't relate to the, maybe the pregnancy part. But whether you're male or female, you can be a mother or a father to your book. And it is very much the same as having a very small child at home with you. You know, it's extremely demanding. You have to meet that small child's needs every day. You're with them every day. You can't really get away from them. It's this very intense relationship, but when they develop and mature in it's time for them to leave and go off to school, then it's like that connection is severed in a way or transformed. And it can be very difficult because now they're out there in the world without you, and you're not seeing them every day. You know, you've got this free time on your hands. You're wondering what they're doing. Who are they talking to? They're having all of these experiences in interactions without you. It's very hard. And I think that's probably what you experienced, maybe not the pregnancy part, but maybe, you know, the child going off to school, the child living its own life independently of you.

Bill Soroka (16:39):
So that brings me to the next point, you know so w w what, the second book, I did not have that experience. So my, I guess my question to you - with your first book, did you experience something like this?

Lauren Sapala (16:54):
I will say every book is different, and I think this is where we get stuck a lot too, as creatives, because there's so much information out there now that promises this formula to writing a book or this package to this is how you create something. And this is what you can expect and use this method, use this method, and it'll come out with this kind of product at the end. Every single book is different. My first book, it took me 11 years of writing and revising it before it was ready for the world. So it was a long time, that's a long period to be writing and revising. I've had other books, the INFJ Writer took me nine months. You know, it was really quick. It felt like it was in and out of my life, you know, and I didn't have the grief associated with that.

Lauren Sapala (17:42):
I've had books that I've worked on that I actually haven't liked very much. And that's kind of, like I say, it's like the redheaded stepchild where I'm like "Get out of my house. I can't wait until you get out of my house. I just really don't like you, I love you, but we don't get along." So you're going to have a different relationship with every creative work and that's something to keep in mind. So you're not doing it wrong if you feel, you know, resentful towards the work, or it's, it's more frustrating with certain works. It doesn't mean that something's wrong with you, or it's a bad work. You're just having a different kind of relationship.

Bill Soroka (18:15):
What a great perspective on that too. And so I wonder if I can share, and again, I'm trying to apply that methodology. I'm trying to figure this out, which is going to lead to my next question, but I first, I want to lay it out kind of what I was thinking of, what it would take to have this kind of emotional experience. What's it take to have creative grief in the project because it's not everyone, like you said. So first was what I had already mentioned that gestation period, like the amount of time you have invested in creating it, would you say that that might have something to do with it?

Lauren Sapala (18:46):
I think it could. For me, there's a real big difference between fiction and nonfiction. Honestly, I've only had the grief with fiction. I've never had it with nonfiction, but I, I won't say that's true of everyone. I have clients who have had the grief with non-fiction

Bill Soroka (19:03):
Great point, and we do have to kind of separate that mine was non-fiction and but most of the P R let's just say creatives that I've spoken to have been in that fiction realm. What about emotional connection and the bond, what it means to you?

Lauren Sapala (19:19):
That's key. I think that is probably the most important factor. Because like I've said, I've had a very intense, grieving period with a novel that took me six months to write, but I was so emotionally bonded to the character. And also I've known people with memoir and it's been a really hard thing for them to let that go at the end, because they had such a deep, emotional connection with the memories that they were exploring and the inner depths that they were exposing. So I definitely think emotional connection is

Bill Soroka (19:52):
Yeah. And that ties perfectly into the, the next component of this, which is vulnerability.

Lauren Sapala (20:00):
Oh yeah, the more vulnerability - it's just like a relationship in real life. You know, if you, if you are dating somebody for say, you know, a little bit of time, but you're never really vulnerable with them, you guys hang out, you have a good time together, but you don't ever actually take risks emotionally with them. It's not going to be as hard to let them go as it is with your best friend or someone, you feel a really intense, romantic connection with where you share a lot about yourself and you take that risk.

Bill Soroka (20:25):
What a great point, what a great point, because that's exactly, I love Brene Browns definition of vulnerability too, and it's that uncertainty risk and emotional exposure. So the fourth component is the, and this is still up in the air - so I'd love to hear your perspective on it - is publishing to others. Do you see that as a requirement for the grief, or can you publish privately, like in a journal and still feel this?

Lauren Sapala (20:55):
For me personally, it's not a component at all. The novel that I had, the most amount of grief with, I still have not published. I wrote the first draft. It was done. I put it in a drawer that was three years ago. I haven't looked at it since I'm still sad about it. I still have to do revisions on it. I still have to go through the publication process. But I was really in a bad place for about three months after I finished that book. I mean, I was like actually crying, you know, daily, I would go sit in a closet and at work, you know, in the bathroom and just cry. And I felt like a crazy person. But it was emotional connection with that one for me.

Bill Soroka (21:30):
Wow. That's powerful. And that's the other thing too. And what I, what I've gotten really clear on is that this is not about results. And again, I think this ties in what you were talking about with that, you know, having the achievement mindset, which is part of who I am too with the goals. But part of the disenfranchised grief was that nobody wanted to hear my cry story about the grief I was feeling about a book that was a best seller. Like nobody wants to hear that. So the, it doesn't have to be published and then be a flop to feel sadness for it. It can thrive, it can change people's lives, and it can still cause grief for the person who publishes it.

Lauren Sapala (22:16):
Well, again, I think we live in a society that's very uncomfortable with what we would deem as quote, unquote, negative emotions. People, most people feel uncomfortable with sadness, anger, shame, guilt, fear, you know, any of those negative emotions especially sadness or grief or shame. We kind of just want to fix it and move on. And we don't have the capacity to sit with someone and just hold space for them and say, okay, wow. I'm just here to listen to your experience. That sounds really rough. Like, I would love it if you could share more, but you don't have to either. I'll just sit with you. That's very rare to be found in our society. Because we are so masculine energy oriented, it's like, well, where's the problem. Let's find a solution. Let's troubleshoot. You know, we kind of treat everything like the printer's gone off the Fritz, you know, like we need to just fix it and get the manual out and tweak some things. And then you're good.

Bill Soroka (23:15):
That is so true. I often ask myself, so what if we recognize this now as grief, would that change anything in the process? So my question to you, Lauren, is kind of two-part what good does it do to know that creative grief is real and what can we do to prepare ourselves to get through it?

Lauren Sapala (23:41):
Well, first I think it makes a huge difference and it's of enormous benefit to acknowledge that this is real. Because when you don't acknowledge that you're feeling something you're resisting it, you're not letting your body process it. You're just pushing it away and pushing it away and all sorts of different forms. And so it festers, it doesn't just magically disappear. It doesn't just dissolve it calcifies and it solidifies inside of you. You know, it's sort of like you're saying, well, you know, if you've noticed you have a tumor, what good is it to go to the doctor and get that checked out? Shouldn't we just move on with life? You know? No, like you've noticed that this is, this is something that's happening to you. This is a disruption. This is an emotional disruption. So if you can acknowledge, this is real, this is valid, this is legitimate.

Lauren Sapala (24:31):
I'm okay for feeling this way. And I'm allowed to feel this way. You can give yourself the space you need, so you won't be trying to avoid or escape, or like jump into writing another book too soon, or, you know, distracting yourself and just trying to play a bunch of video games. Like you can really take a few weeks or a few months and say, I'm not really doing anything right now. I'm just kind of allowing myself to be in an open space and let things unfold and let myself process it. And that's okay. Maybe I'm moving a little bit more slowly right now. I'm not going to force it. I'm not going to push myself. I think that's an enormous benefit to a creative person.

Bill Soroka (25:12):
I love that. Give yourself space and grace, which is not what we're taught. You know, we've read books that say, as soon as you finish one novel, start the next one the next day. So it doesn't allow for this kind of space and grace. So for a new author or artist of any kind, any type of creative that maybe has not taken the steps forward right now, Lauren like they've, I think everybody has a book inside them or something inside them that has to come out. But if they haven't taken that step and now that they know that there might be some grief in publication, whatever that looks like to them, what can they do to help themselves get through that beforehand? Maybe.

Lauren Sapala (25:56):
Wow. Well, I don't know that there's anything you can do beforehand. There's no way you can predict. It's it's sort of like you're asking me, okay, people who are going to try online dating, how can they, you know, already set themselves up to grieve the loss of any relationships that might come about? I mean, that would be nice. And of course we can all have our arsenal of like self care tools, you know, our disciplines and our spiritual practices. We use, those will all come in handy. But at the end of the day, you can't predict what kind of relationship you're going to have with anything you can't predict what kind of relationship you're going to have with different locations on earth. You know, like some people go to Sedona, Arizona, and they're like, this is the most magical mystical place I've ever been. And other people are like, yeah, I'm not really feeling it.

Lauren Sapala (26:41):
I don't know what the big deal is. It's going to be like that with everything. You know, you don't know how it's going to turn out for you with each book and each creative work. What I can guarantee is that if you don't put yourself into the situation where you are taking risks in relationships with your creative work, you are going to feel very unhappy in life. If you're just not creating it all, because it seems too scary, or there might be a grief process at the end, or you might have to take an emotional risk. You're going to feel horrible. And you're going to feel horrible on a daily basis. And I'm saying that because I've been there, I've had long periods of my life, where I wasn't creating. And I hated my life. I was not having a happy existence. So that's the one thing that is guaranteed.

Bill Soroka (27:24):
I love that you brought that up because that's about the same conclusion I came to as well. Like yeah, if you go through life, not loving anyone, not loving anything, will you save yourself the grief of losing those things maybe, but the cost on the other side of that just isn't worth it. And I think the people who might be listening to a podcast like this might have that need to create, they're probably already creators of some kind. And it's just got to come out.

Lauren Sapala (27:53):
There's no way around experiencing all your stuff while you're creating all of your rejection issues, all of your abandonment issues, all of your entrapment issues. Like they're all going to come up. That's your stuff. This is the most intense, emotional work that you could do with yourself. There's no getting around that, but it will get easier. The more you do it because you'll recognize like, oh, that's just my stuff coming up. Like that kind of always happens at this stage. Like for me, when I hit the middle of writing a book, I feel like I'm in no man's land. I'm like, this was a bad idea. I don't know how I'm going to write my way out of this. This is just, it's all bad. The self doubt waves consume me, but I've done it so many times now that I'm like, oh yeah, this is the part where I'm lost in the ocean of self doubt. Okay.

Bill Soroka (28:40):
But it's all right. How many books have you written just to give people an idea?

Lauren Sapala (28:46):
Gosh, I've published and I have three novels sitting in a drawer that are slated for publication in the next few years. So I've got, and then I'm working on another one right now. So I'm got eight written and one more that I'm working on.

Bill Soroka (29:00):
So basically nine books and you still have your stuff that comes up and you have to deal with, it gets easier.

Lauren Sapala (29:11):
It gets easier with self knowledge. And I think that goes hand in hand with the intuitive piece for people. So many intuitive people start out when they're young and so hard because you don't know what's happening and you don't know why you feel weird around certain people and everyone else likes them, or why you seem to be so sensitive to crowds and loud noises and corruption, you know, like it doesn't make any sense, but as you get older, you're like, oh, that's just the way I am. This is, this is very normal for me. And I don't need to freak out about it again. It's maybe not going to be the most pleasant experience, but I don't need to freak out.

Bill Soroka (29:49):
I love that. And I think personal development or growth or introspection sometimes just, isn't easy. It sucks sometimes. And I think that's what turns people off from it. But I also think it's critical and worth it. I know Myers-Briggs obviously plays a huge component in your life and helping yourself and others. Do you have any other suggestions for people who are on the path that if they want to get to know themselves a little bit more can access?

Lauren Sapala (30:19):
Oh my gosh. I mean, there's so much stuff out there. I have my things that I really love. Like I follow another personality theory system. That's a channeled entity personality system. It's called the Michael Teachings that really resonates with me. I also really like astrology. I like philosophers, like Rudolph Steiner, you know, he's great to me, but all of these things pulled me in uniquely for other people. I know some people are really into Zen. You know, some people are following the Buddhist path that doesn't really speak to me as much. So I really encourage people to just kind of go out there and experiment. And instead of pushing yourself into things that you think you should be doing or that everyone says is so great, really quiet down. If you can see what you're pulled towards, see if you feel a magnetic pull towards something, you'll know it when you feel it like, oh, that sounds so interesting to me. I want to learn more. I want to go down the rabbit hole with that. There's something there for you. If you can cultivate that practice of checking in with yourself and like, yeah, I'm really interested in that. And I kind of don't care if anyone else's, I'm interested in that, that is going to help you so much more than just, you know, following the latest fad or the latest trends.

Bill Soroka (31:32):
I love that. And I think too, sometimes people think that they have to go all in. When they make a decision with this, you can dabble a little bit, figure it out.

Lauren Sapala (31:42):
Yeah, definitely. I'm really into like shamanism. I always talk a lot about it. A lot. People are like, are you a shaman? And I'm like, oh no. Like I have no plans to become a shaman. I have not been called to be a shaman, but I find it really interesting. There's something about it that pulls me. So I dive in and out, you know, I dip in and out and take what I want and take what I can and what works. And then it leaves the rest. And that's fine

Bill Soroka (32:03):
That, and that's, I think the key factor too, you don't have to buy into everything, not everything that somebody says has to be truth. You can take what works for you and not shamanism is something relatively new interest of mine to Lauren. I'm reading, "Walking In Light". Have you read that one yet?

Lauren Sapala (32:18):
No. Who is the author on that?

Bill Soroka (32:22):
It's Sandra Ingerman?

Lauren Sapala (32:25):
No. She's great! I haven't read any of her books, but she's got a lot of online offerings.

Bill Soroka (32:29):
Awesome. Awesome. I love that. Well, Lauren, this has been amazing. And again, I just want to say that I am so grateful for you taking the time, to have a conversation and shed some light on the topic I was struggling with. I hope that our conversation here helps other authors and creators of all types realize that grief might happen and it's okay. And to give yourself space and grace to feel that and keep creating. Thank you so much for being here.

Lauren Sapala (33:00):
Thank you.

- Bill

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